CM brand perception (formerly CM Edition Sizes)

Discussion in 'Cinemaquette Chat Noir' started by Enzucho, Jun 6, 2009.

  1. Enzucho Opionated

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    Turtle @ SF supposedly just talk to CM and they have divulged this info, I am surprised they released this info.
    Written by Turtle:
    "CM real edition size"
    "Just spoke with Cinemaquette and got confirmation on the number of pieces produced for the various pieces:"
    Aragon - less than 200 pieces
    TX - less than 300 pieces
    T800 - around 400ish pieces
    Predator - less than 600 pieces
    In addition, Bruce Lee production will most likely be kept under 500 pieces.
    Finally, the Alien CM will be retiring this month
     
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  2. Stephen Charter Lounger

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    Thanks for sharing this Enz.
    I am not entirely convinced this information isn't anything the original poster couldn't have gleaned from some selective reading on sites such as CBD. Personally it sounds to me like someone who has read bits and pieces elsewhere and decided to release this information as confirmed 'fact'.
    It also doesn't mention anything about the edition size on Jack Sparrow, since he is now sold out also. There is equally no mention of Indy or the GF...
    Until we have official written word on the exact sizes from George I'm treating this one with a very open mind, as I see absolutely no reason why CM would release this sort of information to a customer in this way.
     
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  3. Enzucho Opionated

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    I agree, and that is what everyone is saying on the sf boards, take it with a grain of salt such as I am, I highly doubt that we will ever findout true edition sizes fot these pieces, but then again it adds to the mysteriousness of it all
     
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  4. Stephen Charter Lounger

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    Enzucho wrote 49 seconds earlier »
    I agree, and that is what everyone is saying on the sf boards, take it with a grain of salt such as I am, I highly doubt that we will ever findout true edition sizes fot these pieces, but then again it adds to the mysteriousness of it all

    This is true, not to mention the desirability.
     
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  5. Lars Keymaster Staff Member

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    Interesting, thank you!
     
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  6. Enzucho Opionated

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    -A couple more tidbits from our friends at SF:
    "Yeah, I spoke to CM also, George is the owner and to my surprise answers the phone regularly. The dude is super nice and goes way into specifics to make your call all the more welcomed each time, anyways, he told me the same thing he told Turtle. Molds to those pieces retired were broken so I don't think they would continue producing 'em til the 1000 mark."
    -and another from Trilogy, (whom is a real stand up guy, I think he has a membership here)
    "If the molds have indeed been destroyed, they obviously have no intention of revisiting these at a later date, as some originally speculated, which would explain why they are now revealing production sizes."
     
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  7. Stephen Charter Lounger

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    Thanks Enz.
    I can add to the confusion here a bit. I had a message from a member at the Freaks board earlier. He was asking about some things to do with the CM Predator (since he just ordered one direct from CM). When he made his order he called CM up. CM told him that the Predators were in production at 50 units per month, but are now coming to the end of the production run.
    To be honest, until George himself puts all this edition size talk in writing either on the CM site, or to one of the members here, or to one of the AD's I am taking it all with a massive amount of salt.
     
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  8. Enzucho Opionated

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    Yes, I just think it is interesting, I doubt we will ever know the true edition sizes, but if what these guys r saying is partly true or even on an average, aragorn is very limited
     
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  9. SolidLiquidFox Verbal Diarrhoea

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    Later down the road, would it be feasible for CM to finish the edition size on popular pieces that have been marked as retired? Are molds destroyed so no more can be made?
     
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  10. Stephen Charter Lounger

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    SolidLiquidFox wrote 6 hours earlier »
    Later down the road, would it be feasible for CM to finish the edition size on popular pieces that have been marked as retired? Are molds destroyed so no more can be made?

    I believe that once they announce something as "sold out" that's it.
    My own personal view is that there probably comes a point were the sales of a particular piece just totally tail off - and the costs of keeping the production line going (including ordering up more new raw materials which probably has to be done in minimum quantities) outweighs the gain from selling another unit.
    I guess the other thing to consider is the potential outcry that would occur if CM decided to start re-issuing old pieces. That's never a cool thing to do - especially since some of the pieces are now changing hands for three times their original market value.
    Personally I think the reduction in the nominal edition sixe from 1,000 to 500 (for Bruce Lee and Superman) is a sign that they are being more realistic about the overall potential run.
     
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  11. SolidLiquidFox Verbal Diarrhoea

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    Thinking like a business, if CM found itself in a position where the line was up to volume 50 (as an example) and the fanbase for CM products had expanded, why not take advantage?
    Sideshow pieces are slowly climbing up in price. At some point some collectors may take the "less is more" approach and seek out CM as a way to condense their collection into single items. CM already has the right to produce 1000 of these regardless. If they opened up the waitlist and only sold retired pieces directly new fans could take advantage. Secondary market value seems inconsequential if CM is trying to seek that alternative to fund new projects.
    Just a thought.
     
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  12. Stephen Charter Lounger

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    SolidLiquidFox wrote 49 minutes earlier  » 
    Thinking like a business, if CM found itself in a position where the line was up to volume 50 (as an example) and the fanbase for CM products had expanded, why not take advantage?

    This seems pretty logical, but I guess at some point CM have to say "enough is enough". The TX piece for example, was first released over four years ago. I think it's pretty safe to assume that CM have moved on from the Terminator license now.
    SolidLiquidFox wrote 49 minutes earlier  » 
    CM already has the right to produce 1000 of these regardless. If they opened up the waitlist and only sold retired pieces directly new fans could take advantage.

    Yeah for sure - it seems counter intuitive from a business point of view to stop production on something when there is still demand. But continuing to keep the production going month after month until you reach 1,000 assumes the licenses allow them to do that. It also assumes it's profitable to keep on ordering the parts and assembling them.
    SolidLiquidFox wrote 1 hour earlier  » 
    Secondary market value seems inconsequential if CM is trying to seek that alternative to fund new projects.

    Well you could look at it another way - high prices on the secondary market could lead people to conclude that it's much better to buy from CM brand new, rather than wait and pay much more on down the line. This would have the effect of inflating initial sales - which can only be a good thing for CM.
    From a personal point of view I don't mind how long CM produce an item for. If they want to renege on a "sold out" statement that's up to them I guess. I am sure it would make a lot of people very happy to see the T800 listed as "available" again! :yes:
     
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  13. Enzucho Opionated

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    SolidLiquidFox wrote 3 hours earlier »
    Thinking like a business, if CM found itself in a position where the line was up to volume 50 (as an example) and the fanbase for CM products had expanded, why not take advantage?
    Sideshow pieces are slowly climbing up in price. At some point some collectors may take the "less is more" approach and seek out CM as a way to condense their collection into single items. CM already has the right to produce 1000 of these regardless. If they opened up the waitlist and only sold retired pieces directly new fans could take advantage. Secondary market value seems inconsequential if CM is trying to seek that alternative to fund new projects.
    Just a thought.

    I agree with this, I will probably find myself weaning through my favs and selling the rest due to space,,, I am already almost out of space in the only room my wife allows these to be displayed in,, so with that being said,,, within the next couple realeses, I will need to start taking this aproach :cry:
     
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  14. SolidLiquidFox Verbal Diarrhoea

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    JFJ,
    Remember that the secondary prices on these just started to rise due to the retirement announcement. People were hesitant to pick up these pieces at over $1,000 price tag and some people still are. Cheaper PF's from Sideshow are available (for the most part) so that is always a factor. However, I feel there is a market for CM to revisit older pieces once time has passed and people have a clearer picture of where their CM collection is going. That's part of the problem: the line is very spread out (both in the time of releases and the diversity of each new character) and it's a big mystery regarding the next release. It's hard to commit to a large purchase without a sense of direction. Do I want an Arnold from non-iconic T3 when I could wait for a CM Dutch or a T1 or T2 version down the line? Many may choose to wait. I love Arnold but I passed because I don't like T3 that much. The T800 PF sits in my shelf at the moment.
    Are we collecting only the monsters? how long before we see the next monster since those are usually big hits? are we collecting only iconic actors? are we collecting only iconic characters from movies? Every collector has a "need" and will pick and choose with each release, but at some point he will decide the theme their VERY expensive collection is going. Personally, I had a clear theme of Jack + Indy in CM form for my home theater. I can see myself picking up iconic characters for sure if the quality is significantly higher than a PF when taking some personal factors into consideration like my attachment to the character. The piece also needs to have presence which Superman seems to be in track to having so I feel positive about that.
    All that said (and going back to our original topic) logic says that waiting for a CM is usually the way to go so I don't agree on people rushing to get one to avoid paying more later. Collectors as a whole seem to procrastinate and plan their budget at the last minute. Ask Sideshow with all the cancellations they are getting once they send a "coming soon" email. CM usually corrects errors and do tweaks in later runs. It's like ordering early and having a low number is almost a bad thing. You are pioneering into a new release that may be improved upon later. I do agree with you that there may be licensing issues regarding how long a piece can be produced for. We don't have insight on that so that's something to consider. I do feel that setting up small production runs of older pieces (50 to 200 for wait-listers willing to pay up front) is a pretty easy decision to make IF they are still feasible/possible to produce. I don't think CM will say "enough is enough" to money like that just because they are adopting the philosophy of "only looking ahead to the next one". :naughty:
     
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  15. Stephen Charter Lounger

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    Well I guess in CM's position they probably just looked at the order book and figured that the time was right to retire the edition. Now that may have been premature, but let's face it, with the T-X selling what, around 200 units in 4 years, why keep plugging away when you have 500 very complex Predators to assemble and distribute?
    I agree that switching the production on and off is fine in principle, but if we accept these are produced in batches of 50, how long in terms of getting to that miniumum number do you, as a company, have to wait? And for that matter, if you are a customer who is number one on the waitlilst and pay your money up front, how long realistically should you expect to wait until 49 other people have all jumped in behind you... a year, two, three?
    About the sense of direction. CM have said on numnerous occasions that it's one character per film, and one actor per line. So if you want an Arnold CM you need to buy the T850. And this is only meaningful in terms of the human characters.
    It seems to me that the people who wait on CM's end up paying for it. Cinemaquettes virtually never come down in price. If you want to buy a Predator right now MIB it's going to cost you upwards of the original retail price on ebay (plus shiping and NO help with a replacement). You might be able to pick up the occasional human character at less than retail on the secondary market, but these are few and far between.
    The business model you are talking about (waiting for a waitlist to build up) is pretty much what they were doing anyway. But as I said, the big factor is how long it takes to build that waitlist up to the number you need to achieve the economies of scale from your production batch.
    It's unfortunate that some of the early pieces are now unobtainable. And personally I think CM retired the T800 way too early given the on-going buzz around the piece. But there you have it.
     
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  16. Enzucho Opionated

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    I agree with most of that SLF,,, It would kinda go against what CM stand for to begin with,,, extremely limeited. handmade,, Cm's original thought was to have Cm be an exclusive club of loyal and honorable collectors that share the same passion, the pieces would be offered to those ion the club after they got a tally on how many to make based on the request that is how they would figure out the price point,, also the so called club members would get a chance to vote on the next characters to be made..
    if you were to revisit a piece, it would never be the same,,, you would have new tailorers and new painters and new hair people,,,,
    but with pieces like pred, bruce and Supes, I think it would be best to get your order in as soon as possible, due to the high demand of these pieces, besides the fact that bruce is HUGE in the asian market and supes seems to be one of the most iconic character of most generations..
     
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  17. SolidLiquidFox Verbal Diarrhoea

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    The one thing we can agree on is that the collectibles market place is constantly changing. I know CM has it's own way of doing things (for better or worse) and I feel the ambiguous and uncertain future of "what's next?" is holding people back from giving CM a chance. I think we can agree that Arnold from T3 is not the most iconic Arnold out there. :D
    Regarding the waitlist idea, I think you could easily get 50 to 100 people (and dealers) that would jump on a chance to get a T800. Terminator Salvation sort of created a new Terminator awareness and people would jump at a "final last chance" to secure one. The same could be said for the Predator. A cold "sell out" is a drastic move instead of putting an item on "sell out alert" first. Communication with collectors would be an area that needs improvement to get this info out. CM doesn't do a good job on keeping people aware. It's like they make their pieces for whoever wants, shows them at SDCC and the rest you need to find out on your own. Not the best of approaches.
    I do agree that with Superman people would want to get their order in within the first 6 months. It's a unique piece and there isn't any Superman piece of that caliber out there. I do agree with voting on the next piece. May be if we had a list of 5 characters that are being considered...
     
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  18. Enzucho Opionated

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    Well talking to cm at lengths, cm is not about making money,,, the money they get simply goes towards covering the cost of the piece... Again George started cm to share his passion of collecting with others, not to make millions.... It is one collector to another and nothing more. He wanted to offer what he has in his collection to others that can appreciTe
     
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  19. Stephen Charter Lounger

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    SolidLiquidFox wrote 3 hours earlier »
    Communication with collectors would be an area that needs improvement to get this info out. CM doesn't do a good job on keeping people aware. It's like they make their pieces for whoever wants, shows them at SDCC and the rest you need to find out on your own. Not the best of approaches.

    Perfectly put.
    CM seem happy to chat to collectors in person over the phone or one-to-one via emails (which is commendable), but past that there is very little communication, and this is an area where they could make some changes.
    I hear what Enz is saying, about the ethos of the company and all that jazz, but they really could do with being more explicit especially on the availability front, with their statements.
     
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  20. Lars Keymaster Staff Member

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    Great discussion. :top:
    But even Sideshow, despite all their bending and twisting to squeeze out profit, has never dared to touch their sometimes unlimited but retired grails again (and sometimes even I was very surprised they didn't, in a positive way). For everything other than the uttermost shortterm prospect, such a move seems to be commonly agreed to have huge potential to backfire in mulitple ways among the industry.
    As for the "wait for a more iconic represantation" strategy, if CM does stick to their one-piece-per-license policy, people with such a mindset might very well find themselves missing out.
     
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